Tuesday, March 20, 2007

And now the real celebration begins…

The topic of rape has come up again a few times recently. Whenever this subject is raised there are always a few men who jump in with the following argument.

“But men just don’t understand you strange, complicated creatures! We’re stupid, and you must realize this. We can’t read body language. How are we supposed to know if a woman is consenting or not?”
Um, ask her? Is that really so difficult? Seriously, if there’s any confusion in your mind, if you’re not sure…just stop and ask!

Onto the next stupid argument….
“We can’t read body language”
I call bullshit. Let me repeat something I posted over at Ren’s place.

About body language...well, that depends on what kind of body language we're talking about. If a woman is actively trying to push the man away? Has her hands on his chest or torso pushing? Refuses to open her legs? That's some pretty clear body language. I don't think any man is really dumb enough to be unable to read that. Those who are applying "he didn't get it" arguments to that scenario...sorry, not buying it. Unless it's a specifically BSDM-themed encounter then those things unambiguously mean "stop, right now". If a women freezes up and turns away...again, I don't really think that's hard to read. A complete lack of enthusiasm on the other person's part is kind of hard to miss. Basically this is where I have a problem with teaching people "consent" as the benchmark. It positions the woman as passive, and normalizes that situation. It creates an expectation that any woman who isn't actively screaming and trying to run away is willing to have sex. That is not in fact the case. I think that the model we SHOULD be teaching young men hinges on ENTHUSIASTIC PARTICIPATION. The woman doesn't seem into it, isn't participating, is just lying there? Stop and find out if she's OK. Are you a rapist if you don't? The law would say no, but for me, I would want to know more but regardless of whether or not I called it rape in the end I would call the man a creepy bastard who I would not want to have sex with.Seriously...why would you even want to fuck someone who's lying there like a corpse, who doesn't seem into it? How uninterested in women's pleasure do you have to be to think that's an OK way for sex to look? To me that kind of looks like necrophilia, to be honest. Bottom line for me - if either partner seems withdrawn and not into things, the other should stop and check in, find out what's going on. If you have even the slightest hunch that something's not right, you have a moral responsibility to stop and check. If you choose not to do that? That's a choice. Pretending that you can't read body language because you're a man doesn't cut it. You're choosing not to care whether the other person is having a good time or not. Does that make you a rapist? In some cases yes, in others no. What it absolutely makes you is a selfish asshole.

Is that simple enough? Pretty unambiguous, right?

I’m not kidding about the “enthusiastic participation” thing. Why the hell does ANYONE want to fuck someone who isn’t enthusiastic? What’s wrong with you people? Are you all into necrophilia or something? Jeez, and I thought I was kinky…

I’ve always disliked the label sex positive. I associate it with a sort of goofy earnestness that sets my teeth on edge – I’m a POMO baby. I don’t do earnest (nods to Piny!). Think Annie Sprinkle and her mirror. Not for me. However…

The idea of consent, defined as the absence of struggle, as the benchmark for when sex should proceed? That’s about as sex-negative an idea as I can think of. It’s…dead. Profoundly depressing. Almost guaranteed to result in boring, unsatisfying sex. There will be no swinging from the chandeliers in that scenario, no ground-shaking orgasms, no moments where it all feels so good you’re barely aware of where the other person’s body ends and yours begins. No passion, no excitement. Nothing.

Why the hell did we EVER accept that as the benchmark? Do we really think that we can’t do any better? Is that really what we want to teach young men and women? Is that the expectation of how sex is supposed to feel that we want to set up for them?

I say no. We can do better. I say if there’s no raw passion, if nobody is screaming and out of their mind by the end, if both parties aren’t so horny they’re desperate for each other, they may as well not bother. People have hands, after all – if you’re going to fuck someone who’s not into it you may as well be masturbating. In fact you ARE masturbating, just with the aid of a living, breathing, but utterly non-participating toy/corpse.

Anyone here want to be a toy/corpse? I didn’t think so.

And guys? If that’s what you want…just jerk off. It’s about the same thing, and at least that way there’s less risk of someone else getting hurt. And of your ass getting thrown in jail.

Enthusiastic participation, people. Let’s shift the paradigm. It’s long past time.

62 comments:

Arwen said...

Don't know if I shared this with you, yet.

When I was first sexually active, I had a very tired and bad sexual relationship. It took me a while to figure out how I worked with a partner, and when I finally did it freaked my partner out. Which made me ashamed, because I was carrying baggage, so I didn't fight for myself. Eventually, I was drinking too much and just trying to get things over with.

We broke up. (Thank all that's holy).

Then I had a sewed a wild oat or two, and I didn't much care what my partners thought of me long term. Sex was just damn AWESOME.

Then I met my husband. At first, he was just an oat I was sewing: then we began to fall in love. And I suddenly turned off.

He noticed. Right away. We were having sex, but my head had left the building.

He stood up so fast, put on a robe so fast, that I had a hard time getting back into my head to figure out what was going on. (Yeah, CS, Disassociation Queen.) "What are you doing?" he said. "Um..." I said. "You're not into it?" he said. "No, but I was letting you finish..." I said.

He blew his stack. It was the one and only time he's yelled at me. (Normally, he gets quiet. Moody, one might say.) "Don't fucking make me into that kind of guy!" He was livid. "That is disgusting and sick, and I won't participate."

I haven't done it again.

As he said, it's not fucking rocket science.

Cassandra Says said...

Arwen - No, this is the first time I'm hearing it.
"It took me a while to figure out how I worked with a partner, and when I finally did it freaked my partner out."
You mean he was upset about you figuring out what works for you? Idiot. As you said, good thing you broke up.
And THANK YOU. Seriously, this stuff's not that complicated. You're with someone and they seem uninvolved? Find out why!
I'm never sure which ones are being disengenuous and which ones are just selfish, at least on the net.

Tobias said...

Cassandra,

I don't know if this post is in any way referring to our recent conversation, but in case it was, when I was talking about the difficulties in reading body language I wasn't talking about rape and the rather explicit body language you describe (although I can imagine there are women who aren't sexually outgoing but still quietly , possibly entirely passively, "into it"?) but about the complexities in the mating process well before the point of possible consensual enthusiastic participation can be reached.

Things like... lip licks, head tilting, syncronicity in movement and the like, and, of course, communication issues. I think I an read bodylanguage a lot better than many other men, but I've had it more than once that a girl told me later, she would have really wanted me to continue to escalate our interaction when I thought she was rather disengaged in the conversation. Things like the good night kiss... lips, cheeks, tongue? Damn, that's so complicated at times. Or she says 'let's say good night', you leave, and a week later she tells you... 'why didn't you try harder to come upstairs last week?' You don't want to know my thoughts in that situation.

I don't think that kind of non-verbal communication is simple at all. And non-verbal communication allegedly contains about 70-80% of the information we transmit...

That's the kind of thing I was talking about.

"No, but I was letting you finish..." I said.

I would not want that either.

I agree to "find out why" - but I don't think it amounts to anything like rape as long as the woman is making that decision conciously and voluntarily. I think many old couples experience situations in which the sex drive of the partners differs. Naturally, it's physically (no erection needed...) easier for women to handle these situations.

Many women seem to fake orgasms and possibly even enthusiastic participation because they are happy about the relationship as such and don't want to endanger it. If they and their partner are both ok with it, then be it, in my opinion.

I think in such situations, they have even learned to read each other's body language.

Trinity said...

Cassandra, I could not agree more.

Hence my disgusted comments over at Ren's to the guy who said "well, in sex it's hard to pay attention because you're so distracted!"

Yes, having a wet cunt/hard clit/whatever can make one a teeny bit self absorbed sometimes. ;) And maybe there's more pleasure for men, though having seen some of the amazing things women bottoms can go when in joyland I TRULY TRULY TRULY doubt it.

But despite any of this, your own body is *far* from the only thing you ought to be paying attention to.

Trinity said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Trinity said...

"Things like the good night kiss... lips, cheeks, tongue? Damn, that's so complicated at times."

Wow. Do you only ask people out who have never heard of kissing you?!

Honestly, if somebody I was dating was trying to process what kind of kiss to give me, as if this were science class and not sex... that right there would ensure I'm not interested.

"Or she says 'let's say good night', you leave, and a week later she tells you... 'why didn't you try harder to come upstairs last week?'"

To this you say "You know, I'm not interested in people who don't tell me what they want. Would you like me to come back over or not? If not, goodbye."

humbition said...

Ren Ev is about to close comments on her thread, so I'd like to bring my comment on over here:

You know, having listened to both sides of this argument I have a Modest Proposal that I would like to make. Of course intervening in an argument usually gets the intervener in trouble, but I'd just like to see what happens on this one. Full disclosure: I'm a heterosexual male from an Earlier Generation.

My Modest Proposal: Let's have different rules for, y'know, actual sex sex, and y'know, making out and stuff .

Let's have "no be the default" for stuff that involves actual unzipping, unhooking, slipping off, and the like. For women, risk of pregnancy, if POV is involved; for all concerned, risk of the tougher STDs. Stuff that involves the actual genitals. [and for present company, I'd add, blood.]

Generally there are lots of preliminaries to such acts. Tangles in the nonverbals can be straightened out in the course of those preliminaries. Let's do that, then, and use the toughest, enthusiastic participation, you better have the nonverbals right or else ask, standards for sex sex.

But let's loosen up in evaluating the preliminaries. The Barefoot Bum and, on Cassandra's blog, Tobias, have mentioned the everlasting plaint of the sensitive new age guy, that a woman wanted him to be more "aggressive" at an earlier stage in the process. Fine! What if this sort of thing wasn't even at issue in rape policies? Wouldn't that be an interesting world?

So Barefoot Bum comes up to his date's room, at her invitation, and makes the "mistake" from her POV of waiting for a "sign" from her. (Personally these kinds of games drive me nuts, and I don't tend to participate in them, but that's not my point.) So then, what if he overlearns his previous experience, and moves in to try to put his arm around her, and kiss her, even though she's not giving any more "sign" than sitting on the bed.

Well, so what? He does that, and she enthusiastically participates, well, good. He does that, and she doesn't enthusiastically participate, and he says, "OK, what's up?" And she tells him and they move on from there, or not.

Nobody's unzipped anything yet [or unhooked, or slipped off, etc.] So here's my Modest Proposal. Let's keep the miscommunication at the making out stage. Let's not go all Antioch on goodnight kisses, OK? I think this is the part of those college policies which drives some of us batty. But before anyone actually gets to unzipping anything -- well, I think a few words can even tend to be in order, believe it or not.

Trinity said...

humbition: why is talking such a turn-off for you? I personally LIKE to hear people tell me what they'd like me to do with them. It's very sexy. Is it somehow not for you?

humbition said...

Trinity, I agree with you personally. Talking is sexy.

But there is a difference between, "try talking, it can be a cool part of your repertoire," and "The College Authorities (or whomever) have determined that talking at certain points is Mandatory, however awkward it may feel, and however many people have navigated without it in the similar situation."

Cassandra Says said...

Tobias - I was more referring to a conversation that took place on Ren's blog, which seems to have followed me over here...
However...sorry, but I'm just not buying the "body language is so hard!" school of thought. Trin made a great analogy over there about driving - if you can't read the road signs, don't drive. I'd modify that with - if for some reason you can't read the signs and therefore don't know where you're going, STOP AND ASK FOR DIRECTIONS. It's really not that difficult.
Now, about your hypothetical situation, I'd say
A That's an unusually passive woman. The only women I know that passive are either not really women (ie they're in their mid teens) or over 50. Within the age range that most of us are in, I don't know a single one.
B. Why would you want to sleep with someone who can't communicate anyway?
C. Again, I've never met the woman in whom complete passivity is a sign of enjoyment, and in my younger days I did sleep with women. Men often think that this is a sign of enjoyment, but they are incorrect. Usually it's a sign of emotional and physical disengagement, more commonly known as "lie back and think of England" or "hopefully this will be over soon so I can go to sleep". It's rarely a sign of enthusiasm, so let's not discuss things based on the idea that that's a typical behavior. It isn't.
D. Even if you think she may be OK with what's going on, would it really kill you to stop and ask?
E. If you are somehow running into women like this all the time either you are somehow self-selecting for really, really passive women or they are not being honest with you. Lots of women do fake orgasms, indeed, but that's not something that you as a guy should be happy about. It means she's not enjoying herself. If you somehow think that's OK, normal or to be expected, then we're done with this conversation.

Cassandra Says said...

humbition - Here's a question - why are we obsessing about something that may have been a policy on a few college campuses at some point? That is not how things work in most of the world. It has nothing to do with what my post was about. I'm not appreciating the thread diversion.

Cassandra Says said...

On a more general note - I'm somewhat sympathetic to the idea that a little fumbling in the early stages is not such a big deal, with the caveat that again, if you're not sure, ask. However...
Here's the point I was trying to make. People who can't read each other's body language are not going to have good sex. They just aren't. Ability to read each other's body language is VITAL to good sex. Honestly, my feeling is that if you're unable to read each other's subtle signals you are just not sexually compatible, and should go find someone else with whom you are compatible. See what I said about raising the bar? This is what I meant. Most women accept boring, mediocre sex as if that's the best they can expect. I'm not OK with that. That's not the model we should be teaching people - he has a great time, she lies back, thinks of his pleasure, and then fakes an orgasm. That model sucks. The paradigm needs to shift.

Arwen said...

No, but I was letting you finish..." I said.
.... I don't think it amounts to anything like rape as long as the woman is making that decision conciously and voluntarily.


Mmmhmm. You're right. It's not rape. It's using a piece of flesh that happens to have a brain attached to masturbate in. It's allowing someone to use you as a sex toy in order to keep things on an even keel.
Not all sex has to end in orgasm. However, if either partner is totally uninterested, and trying to ignore what's going on, than what you've got is a fuck hole or a dildo. There are dolls for that.

I'm not saying there should be criminal charges.

I'm saying it's fucking gross. And it's not really sex. It's masturbation with something other than a washcloth.

----


humbition: I'm not sure that I know of any criminal proceedings arising out of a mistaken cue regarding kisses; at least not where there wasn't a complicating factor such as somebody being an employer, or, say, uncle, or it's part of an attack by a stranger - subway frotterism, perhaps.

Are charges being laid or actions kicking people out of school for kissing badly happening a lot around your part of the world, humbition?

As far as I can tell, what "polices" that sort of mistaken cue reading is plain old social compatibility and stigma. "That disgusting creep thought I'd allow her to kiss ME." Unless you want to legislate against trash talk, that sort of social policing is probably here to stay.

-------

Tobias; "why didn't you try harder last week?" can be interpreted two legitimate ways. One; as a power play or game. Two; as new intel regarding an ongoing situation. You seem to be missing two entirely, and missing all the shades of one.

You seem to be getting balls-twisted by the very idea that last week you missed out on some action. Someone may have been playing games with you! If you are over the age of, say, 27, this should simply flag "move on": if there's a head game, chances are tail wasn't on the agenda anyway. You shouldn't be getting terribly balls twisted about it. (That would say something weird about you. I'm going to assume you're young. Or maybe really religious.)

If she is younger than, say, 27, then (yes) it might be a head game. If she's a "Rules" reader with a subscription to Cosmo, (or if she's ever internalized a Maxim article), she's probably thinking this is necessary moves on her part. She'll grow out of it - unless she partners with the male version, I suppose. If you think Maxim says anything real about people, then have fun games! G'bye!

If she won't go out with you again, that's when she's TRULY fucking with you. In that case, she really doesn't mean it, anyway. She would have laughed at you last week. It's either revenge or whimsical nastiness. This is the only reason to be have your panties in a knot regarding the intentions of the woman in question: the "I totally would have fucked you but you missed out" is about power. Even still, who cares? Move on.

However, in the young or fearful, this communication is probably far more benign: a slightly nervous-about-being-female and perceived-as-sexually-aggressive sexual aggression. Head-games women won't mean it; but with someone who seems pretty much on the up and up it IS A COMMUNICATION about what to do NEXT TIME.

You are being told at the time that the date is comfortable enough to tell you. In other words, communication is happening, and there's nothing to mourn about or get weird about. Just accept the new information.

Think of it as instant replay where you learn something new. She can't think of how to say "can we fuck tomorrow?" - or maybe she can't commit to that, because she was made horny by your last date, but she's not sure that she can handle the way you clean your nails with your butter knife, or whether her sexual interest was merely a product of beer.

(When I was younger, we used to call 'em Wide-ons. As in, he totally gave me a wide-on. Nice, eh?)

She's saying "if next time is like last time, I might want to make out with you or do something more; but because we are new to each other, I won't be explicit about how far that might go, because I'm not letting you think you're entitled to my cunt based on something I said today. You might end up tweaking my nipples and turn me off and we'll go no further. So I'll let you know that we can try, within bounds, next time."

It is still hard for women to be horny without getting painted as slut. If she was really "into" it, she might not want to be perceived as wanton; and it may have taken her time away from the heat of the situation to decide that, yes, that would have been okay.

In any case, dark mutterings about "not wanting to know what I thought in that situation" make you sound desperate and possibly sociopathic.

Tobias said...

Cassandra, it's impressive. We really don't seem to get each other. I believe that I'm writing something that is, as I see it, in complete agreement with what you wrote in order to make my point that when I was speaking of complexity in body language I wasn't talking about this stage of interaction, or, well, sex itself, but the earlier stages of interaction, and you seem to believe that I was arguing that somehing "I can imagine" were the usual behavior.

B. Why would you want to sleep with someone who can't communicate anyway?

I wouldn't. But I'm not everyone. And it's not my decision to make.

...It's rarely a sign of enthusiasm, so let's not discuss things based on the idea that that's a typical behavior. It isn't.

No it isn't, as you said - it's hypothetical and as I said "I can imagine" - as opposed to "I've seen", or even "I think is the usual behavior".

D. Even if you think she may be OK with what's going on, would it really kill you to stop and ask?

No, as I've explicitly written above. In that situation asking seems to be the only logical option.

E. If you are somehow running into women like this all the time

I am not - I said "I can imagine..." - no data point.
And again, while I have never before been referred to as a "sensitive new age guy" I was talking about the earlier stuff, not the sex itself.

On your general note - people who aren't able to read someone's body language shouldn't have sex at all? Well, for one, they likely aren't, actually, and that's the problem I was referring to in the earlier conversations. If too few people in the sexual active population are actively engaging in regulat sex (and I see a 50/50 distribution) that is a socially dangerous situation, in my opinion.

Should women expect more? Well, more than what? What is "mediocre" sex? Basically, great sex happens with compatibility and time, time to get to know each other. Since sexual relationships are getting shorter on average, the "quality" of the sex experienced is bound to decrease on average. For non-standard heterosexual sex this maybe offset to some extent by a society more tolerant of specific consensual sexual practices than ever before.

So, while I'm fine with "women should expect more", I am saying "well, then tell us what you want." Don't expect men to magically be able read your minds. The majority isn't.

Trinity,

Wow. Do you only ask people out who have never heard of kissing you?!

I don't understand what you mean here.

Honestly, if somebody I was dating was trying to process what kind of kiss to give me, as if this were science class and not sex... that right there would ensure I'm not interested.

Well, women may be more emphatic then men on average, but I quite simply don't think they aren't thinking about these things. Well, I always thought, tv like SATC was just bollocks until some girls told me that was their reality of chatting about guys. Maybe you're different, but if SATC was a (fun) science class for female sexual behavior then we're really not that different in that respect, except that we don't understand what the other one is talking about and men generally are too embarrassed to talk about these kinds of issues to women because they are fearing the reaction you talk about.

So you're confusing me here - on the one hand you're saying that you'd expect your possible partner (someone you probably met not too long ago) to know your preferred mating speed and sequence without needing you to spell it out (otherwise "that right there would ensure [you're] not interested."), and on the other, you are demanding that I react to her "why didn't you try harder (which, essentially, is a way of saying what you said - "you did not get my non verbal signs", (whatever they may have been)) by saying "I don't like people who aren't telling me what they want".

Sorry, for me the two approaches seem a little contradictory. If making things explicit is a turn-off and we don't want that, then we have to either a) live with the possible consequences of confusion of non-explicit verbal communication or b) find a way to learn to talk to each other non-verbally.

arwen,

thanks for the lesson... ;) well, that instance was a while ago. Quite a while. So I wasn't looking for anything "real" and neither was she. It was in the experimenting stage and I am entirely sure that my being pissed off about "missing some action" wasn't "sociopathic". Her statement certainly wasn't communication about the future... Wow, now I've been called "possibly sociopathic" and "sensitive new age guy" in a single thread... there's always a first. I'm laughing it off, arwen, communication is difficult and English isn't my native language.

But after spending almost a week at another blog arguing with Cassandra about being in agreement about most points we argued about, after causing her to focus in her reply on the one point I merely mentioned as a logical contingence, after causing you to even think about something like "possibly socioppathic" by making a statement I considered to be a funny thing to say at the end of that paragraph, a tongue in cheek reference (you know, like a speech bubble in a comic, with nothing but the word "censored" in it) to the fact that, yes, I was pissed off about her statement, I am beginning to seriously question my ability to truly express my thoughts in English.

(When I was younger, we used to call 'em Wide-ons. As in, he totally gave me a wide-on. Nice, eh?)

Yeah, well, case in point. I don't understand this...

However, thanks for arguing my case (non-verbal inter-gender communication is overly complex at times) by explaing just two of all the possible thought processes that might have caused her to tell me to leave first and later call me a looser for not insisting more. Well, there you go.

It is still hard for women to be horny without getting painted as slut.

True. Unfortunately so, in my opinion.

humbition said...

I don't mean to be derailing anything with my allusions to college policies. I was in correspondence with the feminist blogger Aspazia last year about a case at Gettysburg University which had to do with such policies, and technically they are in force at many universities. She made a couple of posts on this issue.

http://melancholicfeminista.blogspot.com/2006/05/rethinking-feminism-series-consent.html

I think that the controversy around such policies when they first came out affected some of us. I also think that the whole issue of context is important. It is healthy that people want to move away from legalism when they talk about good sex and consent, because legalism has been such a big trap, but that trap is a real legacy of a history which I think of as "the energy beasts of the early 1990s" -- not that I really want to feed them though, so I'll withdraw from that at least here.

I completely agree with all of you, cassandra, trinity, and arwen, very strongly about what constitutes good sex. Raising the bar to real, passionate participation -- absolutely! And yes, this is where I'm at in my own life, and I was fortunate that it began with my college girlfriend way back in the early '70s. But of course that was all part of the counterculture. Well, yes, I've had a few unsatisfactory one-nighters (though not "gray," no -- just not what I wanted) -- well, with me, it's either one night, or it's months or years. (Right now, it's a lifetime.)

Part of the deal is that I have different standards in my own life and in how I judge the lives of others. The moment the word "rape" comes into a thread, I automatically jump into "how I feel comfortable in judging others" mode, and away from "my aspirations for my own life" mode. This is probably the legacy of all those years when people were discussing these matters in more of a, possibly inappropriate, legalistic framework.

Another part of the deal is, and arwen you've just been a good role model for this -- please, listen to the men who take a risk in posting the dilemmas from their experiences. We (speaking here on behalf of basically pro-feminist men) all know what to say to be "feministically correct," but if we stay in that groove, we don't learn. So dialogue is important, and difficult, and for me a real road to sometimes surprising understanding, even when my anonymous persona doesn't look as "good" on reflection as I would want it to.

Anyway sex-positive feminism as represented by this corner of the blogosphere is one of the few features of the current scene that gives me real hope for the world, and I do want to encourage it. So, bravo sex-positive feminists! I hope you help bring eros back into a world that desperately needs it.

Trinity said...

"But of course that was all part of the counterculture."

This is really the only thing I've seen you say that's resonated with me, but it certainly does.

I've never actually dated or even had sex outside my own particular counterculture, and one big part of why is because the larger world's rules and ideas of sex confuse me and don't at all appeal to me. What I'm basically saying in all this is I'd like consensual sex for most people to look a little more like sex often is (though not always; bad sex is a universal) for me -- not in the sense of more like my own fetishes, but:

negotiated (in a sexy way, not a legalese way), about what the people involved want, enthusiastic, enjoyable, mutual.

humbition said...

Word, trinity. Word.

As you know I'm the king of overthink. So this time, I'll just leave it at...

Word.

Arwen said...

Tobias - If a woman told you to leave, and then later called you a loser for leaving, and she didn't intend to see you again, then she was playing head games.

Of course, being angry at being manipulated and mocked isn't sociopathic: but it's also not really about sex.

I'm not sure how a crazy power play fits into a conversation about living-vagina-as-sex-toy; or even about misreading physical cues. I don't know what happened with that person, particularly; but I've got all kinds of weird date stories too, and people being not-like-you or nuts or mean is a different kettle of fish entirely than the sex part of sex.

Yes, you are absolutely RIGHT that women need to be responsible for telling their *sexual* partners what they want about *sex*. And that clarion call to women is something Cassandra has been doing, and myself, and doubtless Trinity.

However, if dudes really want women to state their preferences and be actively involved, they can be exactly like my husband, and demand it. Aggressively.

He refuses to participate in masturbating with a vagina, even IF the woman who owns the vagina consents.

He insists on being respected as a partner in a mutually enjoyable enterprise, and treated like an adult who will not be destroyed by "stopping".

He will not be made into a vagina-using prick.

He will not settle for masturbation on a woman when there is a world of fabulous mutual sex to be had. (Why would anybody?)

See? Boys can choose not to fuck women who don't participate, ask and enjoy. This is on men as much as it's on women. And the first thing you have to do is utterly reject, by definition, any masturbatory action that calls itself sex. Nope. Wives cannot lie dead on the sheets with their husbands working away over them and that be called "having sex".

It IS true that sometimes partners have differing sex drives. And that's happened in my relationship, where my husband has not been as into it as I am. I would not ask him to lie, distracting himself with the patterns on the ceiling and wishing I'd hurry up, while I humped his knee. That is not a respectful solution for either of us: it makes my sexuality a burden, which is gross for me, and it makes his body a convienence, which is dehumanizing for him.

It's lose/lose. Reject it utterly, fiercely, and with passion; as if every orgasm, every sweaty animal session of sex and love depends on it.

I promise, just that rejection - even if done just by men! - would change the world.

(Although obviously, it's on women, too.)

Cassandra Says said...

Arwen - I love you, you know that? thanks for tackling that one so I don't have to, as I grow weary. The idea that some women "just choose to be passive"...blech!
Check out the jackass in my latest post, BTW, Mr I nearly commited rape by accident but it's partly her fault!

Arwen said...

Cassandra - No problem. Every once and awhile I think, holy fuck. My husband is a great guy, but the fact that he respects himself enough to want good sex and respects me enough not to wank in my body should not be the thing that makes him so fabulous. It should be sort of basic. So basic that anything else is seen as at the very least, pathetic, and usually immoral, and the absolute definition of Bad Sex for men and women alike.

Goddamn.

Anyway.

I just buzzed over to Trinity's, and (although I don't have a livejournal), I should say that my husband and I are fairly vanilla. We've tried a lot of everything, and when it comes right down to it, we're sort of obvious. Cheap drunks, too. So you can be vanilla and still have a pulse; but perhaps in this society you have to be open minded to think that interest is necessary. After all, we did *try* many things at least once; we took away tame little aspects of things. Compared to some people, for whom things like masturbation, oral, light bondage, toys, etc. are SPICY!, well... Well, I guess we're vanilla with butterscotch ripple. Anyway.

Tobias said...

Arwen,

I'm not sure how a crazy power play fits into a conversation about living-vagina-as-sex-toy; or even about misreading physical cues.

Well, that's where the whole "I basically agree with everything said in the post with respect to actual sex" which I mentioned at the beginning of my initial reply is important. I replied just to make sure Cassandra wasn't writing this thread as reply to another discussion about communication problems we were having before in which I was concerned about communication difficulties BEFORE sex not DURING sex.

different kettle of fish entirely than the sex part of sex.

yes.

And that clarion call to women is something Cassandra has been doing, and myself, and doubtless Trinity.

The more the merrier :)

He will not settle for masturbation on a woman when there is a world of fabulous mutual sex to be had. (Why would anybody?)

I think that is all reasonable and I feel like he does.

Still, I am sceptical about "the world of fabulous mutual sex" that can be had - if we're not talking about some specific case but about the general public.

One of my fundamental social concerns is that an increasing part of the supposedly sexually active adult popuplation in advanced economies aren't getting nearly as much sex as they did before the sexual liberation. On the one hand, simply because the length of relationships goes down and most sex happens within stable long term partners (which also increases the quality, in all likelihood). So a part of my generation (~30) may have more sexual partners on average than was the case in any generation before. But that doesn't translate into 'more' but into less sex, especially when taking into account that the distribution of sex is apparently leading to an ever bigger exclusion rate. I think what I can see in my extended group of acquaintances is a 50/50 situation, for men as well as for women: About half of them are either in a longterm relationship or getting less sex, but at least in decent intervals through either One Night Stands or consecutive short term relationships, the other 50%, more men than women, but it's a slight majority, aren't getting anything at all, for whatever reason. Some of the guys are opting for commercial services from time to time, if any of the women are doing that, I don't know.

Extrapolating from that, I am getting more and more worried about the social consequences of such a "sexual imbalance".

I would not ask him to lie, distracting himself with the patterns on the ceiling and wishing I'd hurry up, while I humped his knee.That is not a respectful solution for either of us: it makes my sexuality a burden, which is gross for me, and it makes his body a convienence, which is dehumanizing for him.

In my understanding "dehumanizing" would be too strong a concept here, but I agree with your point.

So, imagining this is not simply a short term imbalance - I think the rule are longer term incompatibilities based on different biological processes - how do you deal with that? I think that is challenging the very core of a partnership as we understand it - mutual trust and openness, including sexuality.

Older couples are the rule here, I suppose, but I have once heard an interview with a 28 yo man, who did not have sex with his girlfriend for seven years, because he loved her dearly and she did not want to have sex (as she was abused before). But after seven years he felt it was no longer possible for him to go on like that.

That's quite a dilemma. She may agree to him going to a prostitute, but he doubts that she would be able to handle this in the end. He could go without telling her, but it would endanger the trust they have built. He could split up, which he doesn't want to. She could agree to have sex, which she would not enjoy, presumably, and so he would not want it either. Or he could stay celibate, and buy another stack of porn, which isn't a "solution" either.

What are these two to do? I bet if he could just turn a switch in his head he would to ensure the compatibiltiy, he would do it. And I bet she would "turn it on", if she could. Sex should be fun, but it can be a burden as well.

Tobias said...

I don't know where else to put this thought, so I'm putting it here.

Thinking about this conversation and the wider communication issue - the telling each other - I was wondering why so much sexual education isn't really about sex, but about reproductive biology. Why is there no real communication between those that are interested in an interaction? Why is this still considered a team sport, where the teams are hanging out separately exchanging second hand tips about the other?

Why do men go to workshops allegedly teaching them how to talk to women and the only women there are paid for their presence?

Why aren't there communication workshops for teenagers or early twens (or anyone who may still need it) of both genders, where they can simply ask the kind of stuff they've always wanted to ask, no judgement. Where men/boys can ask women/girls about how they perceive an approach, and vice versa. Possibly anonymously, with people you are not likely to ever meet again, thus no peer pressure, no bragging. A place where mutual fears are taken seriously, and hopefully taken care of, as much as this is possible.

I don't know. Maybe just a stupid idea. But maybe not.

Arwen said...

In my understanding "dehumanizing" would be too strong a concept here, but I agree with your point.

No. Not too strong at all.

Tobias, I'm going to be blunt. I have lots of friends, some in long term relationships. But a few are men who probably will never "settle down", and whose partners number in the hundreds, even though - and I mean this utterly sincerely - they are not particularly good looking, nor are either rich. I hand their number to single female friends who are interested in having a good time. Why? They're good in bed. How? Not by knowing techniques, but by simply PAYING ATTENTION.

My husband, from the age of 17 onward, never went longer than 2 months without a sexual partner. Why? By PAYING ATTENTION.

The problem is not sex, it's your philosophy. There IS a world of mutual sex to be had. If you stop blaming SEX, and start blaming your philosophy, you'll do fine.

Starting with letting go of EPISODES OF SEX charts compared ot history. There was this little thing called economic dependence that meant our grandmothers didn't have choice to do anything but submit to wifely duty. And that, my friend, IS RAPE.

You don't GET sex.
You HAVE sex.
It's a mutual thing.

Frankly, if the sex imbalance is leading to a greater exclusion rate....
then maybe evolution can breed out people who say:

"I agree with you, in premise, but fuckholes are really convenient! Otherwise, I might have to masturbate in a washcloth! Or, I'll have to admit openly my approach to fucking by buying a prostitute to masturbate in -- It was so much easier in the old days, when we could have wives. She'd be happy to be masturbated on to keep me, I know she would. (Ignore that her dependence on me is what keeps her in the relationship... which makes it money for sex, don't it?) This whole "Women's Sexual Liberation" thing sucks rocks because less totally disgusting immoral fuckhole using is happening less often!"

Sorry, Tobias, but you'd be one I'd tell my friends to stay away from.

Arwen said...

And in the case of a woman and man that cannot have sex together, they should either commit to therapy with a timeline for figuring their sex life out, or they should be platonic friends.

Cassandra Says said...

Um, Tobias, you know the 50% more or less depending on gender in your circle who're not getting any? Why don't they just, you know, screw each other? That would seem like the logical solution. Or is everyone just too damn picky and waiting for that supermodel/ movie star they think they deserve? Is this a real social problem, or Shallow Hal syndrome?

Honestly, this is making no sense at all to me. I'm probably 5 years or so older than you, not a big gap (I'm 33), and most of the people I know (ranging in age from early twenties to early forties) are getting plenty. And contrary to what you're imagining, the ones who're getting least are the ones who are in long term relationships, but unhappy ones.

Other than that...Arwen's right. The reason most men percieve a problem now is that they no longer have wives who HAVE to fuck them even if they don't want to. That IS a result of the sexual revolution. A good one. Anyone who thinks that's a bad thing...well, try looking at it from the perspective of the women who used to have to fuck men they didn't want to all the damn time. Not looking so great from that perspective, is it?

Cassandra Says said...

On this point, however, I will agree with you.
"Why do men go to workshops allegedly teaching them how to talk to women and the only women there are paid for their presence?"
Those workshops are a complete waste of time. The people running them are exploiting and profiting from other people's insecurity.

Arwen said...

Why is this still considered a team sport, where the teams are hanging out separately exchanging second hand tips about the other?

Cassandra; This particular paragraph makes me despair.

What's your observation of the incidence of this kind of John Hughes High gender mindset?

I may have been in a bubble, but for me it's always seemed sort of quaint and ridiculous, starting with tension and headgames and ending in marriages where the guy fucks the secretary and the woman's on Quaaludes just to make it through another day. You know? Very retro.

But last year, a dude at my husband's work alluded to his belief that only prostitutes ever had sex with the lights on or performed oral. We were both flabbergasted. Not that this man's wife (and previous gfs?) might not like oral or lights on - takes all kinds - but that he thought this was "a rule of women". He also claimed never to have any female friends; maybe why he believed such a ridiculous rule. When my husband broke it to him that wasn't a "rule of women", his head exploded. Like, women are all different? NO. There must be some RULE OF WOMEN.

It's like believing in the Tooth Fairy. As a 35 year old adult.

Cassandra Says said...

Arwen - I've rarely encountered this kind of converation in real life, and I have LOTS of male friends. When I have encountered it it's been in guys who were in their early twenties. I encounter it all the time on the net, though, not quite sure why.
I probably live in a bubble too. Bay Area, you know? We're wierd here. Vancouver's probably not typical either.
In my social group it's a GROUP - you know, one group for both men and women. There aren't that many single-sex gatherings at all. Everyone pretty much hangs with each other, listening to music and smoking weed. That's why I'm so bemused by Tobias's examples. It just doesn't look like my universe.
Your husband's co-worker - gah! Did he fall asleep in 1964 and just wake up again?

Arwen said...

For Tobias: Suggestions for Couples Who Have Sexual Imbalances they're Working Through

1) Never submit and stare at the ceiling nor masturbate in your partner. It is an 'easy fix' that will eventually destroy the relationship and possible the sexual health of one or both partners. Long term couples end up in bed-death; individuals lose sexual trust in one another; sex becomes a chore to avoid.

2) Unless you are both happy with open marriage, or are both asexual, do work together to find a sensual &/or sexual mutual compromise. Make it a priority. Don't get hung up on Penis in Vagina sex - there is a world of sexy intimacy out there to explore.

3)To fix the problem and find a solution you'll probably have to evaluate: Health, Relationship Imbalance, Sleep requirements, "Getting in a Rut", Anger at one another, Family of Origin stuff, Poor Communication, and many other things.
If you're not able to figure this out by yourselves, see a couples counsellor with a firm grasp of the "hard" behavioural-cognitive techniques, but also willingness to explore family of origin stuff in some way.

Tobias said...

Arwen,

I believe there is just no way we're going to get each other. At least I made it from "possible sociopath" to "one you'd tell your friends to stay away from."

The problem is not sex, it's your philosophy. There IS a world of mutual sex to be had. If you stop blaming SEX, and start blaming your philosophy, you'll do fine.

I am doing fine, thanks for your concern. Could it be that, just because I am paying attention that I am interested in having this discussion at all as it's something that concerns OTHER people more than myself? I think you'd be pleasantly surprised if we ever got the chance to sort this out in person, it would take an afternoon over coffee and likely some serious discussing, but apparently we're both people who care about other people and if this conversation wasn't stretched out over days but handled in 5 minutes of actual chat, I doubt we'd disagree on many things.

But be that as it may, your paraphrasing my paragraph is an unfair representation of what I said. Actually it's not a representation at all. I was hoping I would be able to learn to express my thoughts in a way that would not lead you to grossly misunderstand them, but I am apparently not able to do that.

You don't GET sex.
You HAVE sex.
It's a mutual thing.


I am sorry if the semantic
subtleties of get vs have so important to this discussion that they could invalidate a whole argument. As said before, English isn't my native language.

Apart from the fact that I was talking about something I believe to notice as a social phenomenon, not a personal experience, this haven't said anywhere.

I agree with you, in premise, but fuckholes are really convenient! Otherwise, I might have to masturbate in a washcloth! Or, I'll have to admit openly my approach to fucking by buying a prostitute to masturbate in -- It was so much easier in the old days, when we could have wives. She'd be happy to be masturbated on to keep me, I know she would. (Ignore that her dependence on me is what keeps her in the relationship... which makes it money for sex, don't it?) This whole "Women's Sexual Liberation" thing sucks rocks because less totally disgusting immoral fuckhole using is happening less often!

If that's what you make of my words, I can't help that, but that was not on my mind. These are your assumptions about my assumptions. Seriously, I feel I'm being treated unfairly here.

The whole "Women's Sexual Liberation" is a wonderful and great thing. I am a subscriber to the "more justice for women is more justice for all of us" line of thought, and personally, I am benefitting from it.

The problem I am referring to is that in my opinion about 50% of humans I know apparently aren't great at getting sexual relationships going or keeping them. I'm not claiming to have the worldwide correct statistics on this matter. In fact I'd be more than happy if Cassandra's statistics (everyone is getting plenty, and even more outside of relationships) are correct outside of the group I'm referring to. I'm just sceptical - this isn't something I realised last Saturday in the shower. It's an impression that took a couple of years to build.

If they're really just lacking the "PAYING ATTENTION" thing, they need to learn, and again, we're NOT just talking about men. I doubt anyone of them would like some washcloth action, as you call it, but I hope at least as far as the women are concerned, you'll believe me.

Cassandra,

Why don't they just, you know, screw each other? That would seem like the logical solution. Or is everyone just too damn picky and waiting for that supermodel/ movie star they think they deserve? Is this a real social problem, or Shallow Hal syndrome?

Don't know what a Shallow Hal is. But you're on the spot here: I really don't know what their problem is. They're perfectly normal human beings of both sexes and they're not getting any. Sometimes for years. They're not freaks by any means.

That is not a healthy situation. And saying that is an unhealthy situation does NOT mean that it would IN ANY WAY be preferable to go back to what you call a "washcloth situation". It just means that - if the analysis turned out to be correct - something ELSE needs to be done about it.

And contrary to what you're imagining, the ones who're getting least are the ones who are in long term relationships, but unhappy ones.

Well, I guess the "unhappy" explains that.

Why is this still considered a team sport, where the teams are hanging out separately exchanging second hand tips about the other?

Isn't that so? I am talking about sexual issues with two female friends. Most men I know seem to never talk to women about sexual issues. They talk to each other. And you know what, the two female friends and my sister and a few previous girlfriends all told me that women are doing the same. Predominantly, thus my impresion, the genders are talking about each other, not with each other.

When my husband broke it to him that wasn't a "rule of women", his head exploded. Like, women are all different? NO. There must be some RULE OF WOMEN.

In my opinion, that is the point I was making.... we usually aren't talking WITH but ABOUT another. Are we really disagreeing about the diagnosis here?

What's your observation of the incidence of this kind of John Hughes High gender mindset?

I don't know what that is, sorry.

I encounter it all the time on the net, though, not quite sure why.

I believe that's a simple self-selection explanation. In real life, as you explain, we all live in our respective bubbles, possibly enhanced by some statistics about the other bubbles out there. We try to pick up weak signals about trends and then combine that with our assumptions and philosophical views to form am opinion about an issue.

So yes, my perception of the reality is necessarily informed by my microcosmos. So is yours. That may be the reason for our continued clashes about saying the same things, as I see it.

Those workshops are a complete waste of time. The people running them are exploiting and profiting from other people's insecurity.

Well, yes. But there's a reason why people go there. That's what I'm saying. There's demand because there's a need. They want to learn how to PAY ATTENTION. If they go there, maybe they're only taught how to fake it. But I doubt they're interested in faking it. They're interested in the real thing. I so surprised there don't seem to be any women in this line of business who could explain first hand? Who would be the more credible source? That's back to the team sports argument.

arwen - thanks for those sugestions, although as I mentioned, I am not talking about myself. I think they underscore my main point: communication is essential.

Arwen said...

Tobias - My suggestions for couples with an imbalance were in response to this part:

"So, imagining this is not simply a short term imbalance - I think the rule are longer term incompatibilities based on different biological processes - how do you deal with that? I think that is challenging the very core of a partnership as we understand it - mutual trust and openness, including sexuality."

To me, and I suppose, those in my 'bubble', those suggestions I made are vaguely common-sensical. Not particularly challenging.

You're right: I do get the sense that you're trying to come to some mutually enhancing exchange of ideas, but we aren't "getting" each other.

Does anyone know the Woody Allen character who says:

"I've always wondered how to spell Connecticut?"

This conversation feels like that to me.

Tobias: "How do you spell Connecticut?"

Arwen/Cassandra: "C.O.N.N.E.C.T.I.C.U.T"

Tobias: "Okay, that's would be great. It'd be even better if there was like, some way that people agreed on to spell Connecticut."

Arwen: "Dude. I just told you. Are you being dense, or are you suggesting something about my ability to use Googlemaps?"

Tobias: "I'm not saying Googlemaps is bad or anything, I'm just saying there are all these people who don't know how to spell Connecticut."

Arwen: "Well. They could LOOK IT UP."

Tobias: "Well, I could look it up. Obviously. It's just that other people don't know how to spell Connecticut. It's a modern day tragedy."

Arwen: "?!"

You said: "One of my fundamental social concerns is that an increasing part of the supposedly sexually active adult popuplation in advanced economies aren't getting nearly as much sex as they did before the sexual liberation."

I contest your most basic premises.

->We cannot determine what intercourse actually was sex before sexual liberation. Intercourse is not sex if the woman is only doing it to keep her partner. Therefore, I reject your basic construction of the term sex. This is the argument that's making me think you're freaky. I keep saying - we cannot assume that was sex. Given the fiscal imbalance especially, we cannot assume anything about those partnerships.

->I contest that intercourse, and mutual sex, have suddenly become unavailable.

->In terms of intercourse suddenly disappearing, I wonder very much how often you assume intercourse used to happen in long term marriages.

->I think what you are actually suggesting is that you see a higher number of celibate adults. This is perhaps possible if adults are not being paired off by the village or sold to one another in business deals. In those situations, yes, most adults would end up with partners with whom they'd have the legal right to hump; and in most societies, rape. Since I reject that unchosen intercourse is sex,

and I'll try to be really clear,

what I am saying is that *being celibate* is the SAME THING as *washcloth intercourse*, only without *moral problems*. You're masturbating, either way.

Cassandra Says said...

No time for a detailed response now, but I will say this. I talk to men about sexual stuff all the time. All my guy friends talk to me about their sexual stuff - honestly, I probably talk to them more than to my female friends, because if you want to know something go to the source, right? I'm guessing that's why they talk to me, too. That's why this whole conversation is so confusing to me. Is my social group really that unusual? Other readers, help me out here.

Tobias said...

Arwen,

thanks for that Connecticut expample - first time I had to laugh in this thread :). No time for a detailed response either now, but I'd like to say that I think this one has made it a lot clearer to me what in my replies you were actually objecting to -

->We cannot determine what intercourse actually was sex before sexual liberation. Intercourse is not sex if the woman is only doing it to keep her partner. Therefore, I reject your basic construction of the term sex. This is the argument that's making me think you're freaky. I keep saying - we cannot assume that was sex. Given the fiscal imbalance especially, we cannot assume anything about those partnerships.

If you're assuming that *all* sex before the sexual liberation was in some sense involuntary and therefore doesn't deserve to be part of the concept "sex", I doubt that was the case. But I agree that determining which part was and which part was not is epistemologically impossible. So, essentially, you're right, cut the historical references.

->I think what you are actually suggesting is that you see a higher number of celibate adults. This is perhaps possible if adults are not being paired off by the village or sold to one another in business deals.

Yes, that is my point. And I think it is a problem that needs to be addressed precisely in order to protect the freedoms we enjoy and in order to protect the morally correct definition of "sex".

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